>> we were all complicit, you would say. >> absolutely. >> you write that people, even in their now reduced circumstances, people will want to buy cars, houses, read quality journalism, really? there's a lot of bankrupt newspapers out there. >> i think the -- there is an audience for high-end journalist that i, for instance, look at the growth of public radio of which -- on which i happen to have a show. public radio, while the rest of journalism and media have been cracking apart into smaller audiences, while newspapers, the particular platform of newspapers as it existed in the 19th and 20th centuries has been dying, public radio's audience has been growing and growing. so, to me, that says, absolutely, there's an audience for quality journalism. >> public radio has the advantage of some government subsidies. >> tiny government subsidies.